[mickthefitter]

Hi. My 17 year old female cat was diagnosed with chronic renal failure 6 months ago but has done remarkably well since, mainly eating Royal Canin Renal Support cat foot and taking a daily dose of Fortekor 2.5. Unfortunately she is now unwell following several 'routine' treatments. About six weeks ago I gave her an off-the-shelf wormer that she had a bad reaction to (severe vomiting, straining, blood in stools and diarrhoea) and I thought I was going to lose her. She pulled through, and when she was strong enough I took her for her annual inoculations, which were overdue, and because I'd noticed some extra stiffness in her legs, decided to chance my vets advice to try Cartrophen injections, a product that is actually licensed for dogs but I was told was widely used to successfully treat arthritis cats, without harming the kidneys like NSAIDs would. After the initial FeLv inoculation injection and 1^st dose of Cartophen (1 of 4 within a month) my cat not unexpectedly had a drop-off of her appetite 24 hours later, but not long after I also noticed that she was limping heavily on her front left foreleg, which was always her worst joint but not this bad. To be fair, she had jumped off a chair and the bed two or three times lately, not something she would normally do these days but I had been trying to get her back into her old ways even before the Cartropen. One week later still with little appetite and still limping, I took her to the vet again and he injected her with a steroid and Vitamin B to boost her appetite and support the kidneys, and he decided to try the second Cartophen injection for her leg, which I'd got my reservations about. 48 hours later, the appetite hadn't improved much, and after initial signs that the limping on the front leg was easing, my cat suddenly became weak and stiff on all four limbs and could hardly stand or walk, with shaking back legs. She looked lethargic, depressed, and slept a lot. I thought her time was up due to her kidneys and believed the recent injections had somehow accelerated her end. I didn't want her messed about with and I had arranged for the vet to come and put her to sleep at home but on the actual day, phoned up and cancelled because in the mornings she was still purring when I got up, and she had a little wash of her face, even though getting out of her bed and walking was extremely hard for her and her legs soon gave way. At the vetinary practice, the vet couldn't decide what was wrong and I agreed to have blood tests done. The results showed that bad though her kidneys are, the vet said the results weren't bad enough indicate that she was at her end due to that, and that she had a kidney infection and low potassium levels, which the vet thought could be responsible for her weakness and lack of wellbeing, so she had a penicillin injection and I'm administering a potassium supplement (Kaminox) myself. Over the last 48-60 hours she has become a little more alert, had a slightly improved appetite (although not for her essential diet food) and has become marginally stronger on her legs but is still extremely stiff when she walks and wants to lie down all the time. I'm very suspicious that Cartrophen has had an adverse reaction on her joints and yet can find nothing significant on the internet, though most of the references there are for dogs which is what the treatment is licensed for. Has anyone experienced Cartrophen in cats leading to WORSE joint mobility? It seems very strange to me that my cat got so much worse so quickly after the injections. Part of me is tempted to have the remaining two injections done to see if the complete treatment helps but I also fear that if she is reacting badly, it could kill her.

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[Voula]

All the best for your cat and I hope she is feeling better very soon. There are some good feline groups on yahoogroups which deal with kidney failure in cats and where you might get some more experiences of others with similar issues. I am sure others will reply too. My two old cats both had kidney failure and yes low potassium can cause weakness in the legs. Make sure the vet is monitoring the amount of potassium you are giving because too much can be dangerous. You can go to www.yahoogroups.com and search for feline crf groups.
Love, Voula

[raggiesrule]

I was a little shocked to see she was given a FeLV vaccination at that age?? Unless there was some special reason for this vaccination it would seem to be over vaccination. Vaccines do an important job (though some would disagree) when used frugally but have the potential to cause significant side effects and reduce the immune system (not stimulate it as most people think), if over used they can also cause auto immune diseases to develop.

I would be suspecting a vaccine reaction before anything else though of course it is possible that she is having a reaction to the Cartrophen. I have not used Cartropjhen in a cat but have had significant improvements in older dogs we have treated.

Jo

[mickthefitter]

Thank you Jo and Voula for both of your replies. I'll look into the Yahoo thing, and as regards the vaccination I did wonder beforehand if I was doing the right thing, but since other cats come into my garden I thought I'd hate myself if my Sophie picked something up and I hadn't had her vaccinated. Actually there was an extra vaccination in with this year's injection that she hadn't had before, for feline chlamydiosis. I don't know why but for 14 years this box has never been ticked on the vaccination record. The others are for feline leukaemia, which I thought was the main one, feline herpesvirus and calicvirus, and infectious enteritis. I knew this would be her last vaccination anyway but after this, if she lived long enough she'd not be having another. As for the Cartrophen, I admit it seems unlikely that something intended to lubricate the joints could have an opposite effect but the way things panned out, with Sophie getting worse rather than better after the jabs, just made me highly suspicious. While I think I've got a good vetinary practice (it is classed as a vetinary hospital) everyone at some time wonders, if their pet seems to suffer as a result of treatment, whether profit took precedence over wisdom when it came to giving some treatment. I took Sophie in for vaccinations so the vet obliged, rather than advise me otherwise.

The treatment I'm giving for low potassium is Kaminox and the dosage is 1 - 3 x 2mls per day, which seems a wide range of dosage but I'm doing two times a day as best I can - off a tea spoon! The male vet who I have delt most with over the last few days (the one who was coming to put my cat to sleep but told me to take a step back when I phoned him in the morning to say she was still purring and cleaning her face a little) has told me to phone him on Monday to tell him how she is, so I guess we'll adjust or delete the potassium doasge then. I had become aware it could be dangerous when looking Kaminox up on the 'net before giving her a dose. Then again I intended doing that for Cartrophen beforehand and forgot, but the 'net wouldn't have warned me off anyway. I think the biggest problem in the short term is getting enough food down her, that won't do too much harm to the kidneys, while she is 'off it'. She has been awake for longer today than for most of the last week, and has been outside in the sun and despite still being very wobbly on her legs and reluctant to get up, has got in and out of the cat-hole in my shed door by herself. While I've been typing this I nipped downstairs and unseen by me she has come in by herself through the open patio door, so she must have walked up the plank I've only just put down on the door sill to act like a wheelchair ramp! She's trying! Whatever has happened to her if I can keep her spirits up and get her to eat, I'll keep her going as long as possible even if she is stuck like this, but I hope if she keeps her strength up the effects of whatever it is will wear off. It is still early days yet, but there will be no more dodgy injections. Thank you very much for your concern and your replies,

Mick

[Voula]

Dear Mick,
I have never given my cats the chlamydia vaccination because even vets will admit it has a higher risk of side effects. I wonder if this vaccination caused your cat to be unwell? The Australian Veterinary Association has accepted three yearly vaccination for cats after the kitten vaccinations and one year booster. I think the felv vaccine is still yearly though but not sure about that. I understand you wanting to protect your cat from felv. I think but I could be wrong that felv requires direct contact with another cat's saliva and nasal secretions. You could research that and see if the risk to your cat requires the vaccination. The f3 (herpes, calici and enteritis) is a useful vaccine, but some think that is also over done even at every three years. I have my cats vaccinated every three years but to be honest I am questioning even that. Ask the vet if this could be a vaccine reaction.
Love, Voula

[raggiesrule]

Hi Mick,

Gosh given she has been effectively given an F5 I am not at all surprised she has had side effects. And the depression, inappetence, lameness are unfortunately relatively common side effects of vaccination. Despite all the evidence on the problems with vaccination some vets still do not talk to owners about the risks prior to vaccination.

I can understand you wanting to protect her as much as possible unfortunately vaccinations carry risks and they have to be weighed up against the benefits. In an older animal like your little lady we do twice yearly bloods (to monitor what is going on and pick up any problems asap) and do not vaccinate. My vet would no doubt give me an earful if I did ask for a vaccination at that age. Some vets however still do not talk to owners about the risks and are still happy to vaccinate despite the new protocols (not really new as have been used in the US since 2002!) Here is a link to the long awaited changes to the AVA protocol http://ava.informz.n...inal-june09.pdf

You can help her with the food consumption till she gets the hang of it again. Get some Hills AD or other high calorie food - Eagle Pack holistic Lamb and chicken has worked for us in the past - mix it into a slurry with some warm water that has had some Nutripet or equivalent mixed into it and then syringe it into her mouth. We managed to maintain a sick cat for a couple of months this way and he maintained weight. Make sure you syringe it into her mouth slowly and not too far back as you do not want her aspirating it into her lungs.

Jo

Good luck with your darling girl hope she picks up again.

[mickthefitter]

Hi Jo. I am now getting increasingly unhappy about the vaccination my cat was given. I was round at my mothers today and my sister, brother in law and niece stopped by (who have their own 17 year old cat that is still vaccinated - without a stamped card animals cannot stay in kennels or a cattery in the UK) and all my mums old saved vaccination cards came out for the dogs and cats she has had in the past. My mums current cat (aged 16) has the same style card as mine because she uses the same vet as me - however only two of the 'tick boxes' on her card were ticked saying protection was given against leukaemia and herpesvirus/calicvirus, not the other two. I naturally concluded that my mums cat had been given a milder innoculation. The drug stickers on my card are different, so I think the vet may have changed brands. My sister then picked up one of the ancient health cards for one of the long gone pets, where more of the information was filled in by hand at each innoculation, and pointed out that sometimes three tick boxes were checked, sometimes four, sometimes five, and her conclusion was that you couldn't rigidly go by what had been filled in by hand - in other words she thought my cat must have had the same innoculation this time as she has had before. I don't know. But I must admit that when I saw the chlamydia box ticked off on my brand new health card a fortnight ago, even before the problems started, I was a little concerned. Now I am feeling quite cross. I still don't know what kind of recovery my Sophie will make, given her pre-existing kidney condition, but the good news is that she is making progress at the moment. Her appetite isn't great, but she is eating a little chicken or tuna and sometimes, even though I'm reluctant, a salmon and chicken flavour pet food in a foil tray that does smell rather nice - hence why she will eat it! She has a little more strength back in her legs, but is still rather stiff and wobbly. I can only hope the back effects will go away but it is too early to say. I will be speaking to one of the vets on Monday to report her condition. He didn't administer the innoculation but I've no reason to think he would have acted any differently to the vet who did do, but I will certainly ask the question about the chlamydia injection and why it hasn't appeared on my previous innoculation card. Many thanks for your help and advice, it is really appreciated.

Mick

[mickthefitter]

Hi Voula. I am really surprised that you can get away with vaccinations taking place three years apart because in the UK, if you want to leave your pet in a cattery or kennels while you go on holiday, you have to have an up to date, annually stamped vaccination card for your pet which stays with it while you are away. The sad part of this for me is that I never go away much anyway and certainly don't intend to while Sophie is around, requiring a special diet and medication for her kidneys. I just wanted to be sure she didn't pick anything up in her 'weakened' state in her old age, and didn't anticipate this years vaccination being any different to the last. I'm going to ask my vet about the chlamydia injection to see if he thinks it can have an effect. She is looking a little better and stronger today but progress is slow. She is content while sitting or lying down but stiff when she walks and doesn't do much, but at least her back legs aren't collapsing as easily as they were a few days ago. I really appreciate your advice over this.

Many thanks,
Mick

[carmel]

Mick
The vaccination protocols in Australia have now changed, we only have to vaccinate every three years, that's why Voula made the comment that she did. However, the vets don't recommend it as the manufacturers can't agree that the vacine will/won't work for the three year period.

I don't know enough about cartrophen to comment about any adverse reactions, but what about trying to call one of your major veterinary hospitals in the UK. They may be able to give you more answers than your vet, but I would ask the question as to why she is being vaccinated for F4 which is what that vaccine is the equivilent over here as given her age and the fact that she is semi indoors, the vet should have in my opinion opted for maybe the F3. I nearly lost one of mine to the F4 vaccine and she was a strong healthy kitten.

Good luck with her, and I hope that she improves for you.

[raggiesrule]

Hi Mick,

You might find this interesting http://britfeld.com/...ne-thompson.htm - it was written in 2004 so the issues with over vaccination have clearly been an issue in the UK for the last 5 yrs at least.

Jo

[I.M.O.M]

Our vet would prefer too give vacs every 2 years instead of every year but as we show, the GCCF rule is yearly vacs, I'm hoping they will eventually relax it too every other year, you are lucky too have had your cat for 6 months with Renal failure one of ours went into renal failure and we kept her going for 8very loving weeks on the same diet and Fortekor before the kidneys gave out.

[mickthefitter]

Hi Jo, Carmel, and Voula if you are reading.

I am happy to say that my Sophie seems to be over the worst of it and is nearly back to her old self, allowing for the fact that she isn't that steady on her legs anyway, hence why I wanted to try the Cartrophen. She has even eaten a little of her renal diet food, although she isn't quite fully up to speed on that yet. I wanted to try to put some pictures of her as she is now on here but since I've been using the computer for a few hours now doing other stuff, and I've got a bit of a neck problem myself which hurts(!) it'll do another night. Unfortunately the references to 'F4' and 'F3' are a little lost on me as we don't appear to use those designations in the UK (or if we do I'm not aware of them), also I read the document from the ASAVA Jo sent a link to and I'm still a bit confused as there is talk of three-yearly vaccinations but still 'annual boosters', which is what my Sophie is supposed to have had. Unless I didn't read it properly and it means just one annual booster when the animal is young. Whether or not UK 'boosters' are a whole lot stronger than Australian ones I'm unable to say, but what I can tell you is that after reporting Sophie's improvment to the vet who was dealing with her in her poor state, he told me that the 'booster' vaccination she had this year, that included the one for feline Chlamydia, was the same that they have been giving her for the past two years but a different make. He reckoned the make they are using now is supposed to have less side effects. I don't suppose the brands will mean anything, but the last two were 'Fort Dodge' on the health card sticker and the new one is 'PureVax'. For years I used to go to a little one man operation when all Sophie needed was her annual shots and a flea prevention treatment, and I guess the stuff he used could have been cheaper and milder with less included in the shot, but I changed vets when he couldn't clear a bout of the runs which seemed to demand more than just antibiotics and so now use the more expensive 'vetinary hospital' that my mother has used for years and which in fact I used to take her pets to by car when I still lived there.

My vet actually said that if Sophie was around in a years time he would not give her the same vaccination but given that it is unlikely that she will be around by then anyway, given her kidney condition (and of course these setbacks don't help) it is probably a mute point, but I think if she were around I might not have her vaccinated anyway. The Cartrophen probably didn't have a negative effect after all, but the first two jabs were rendered useless by the side effects of the vaccination and now I don't want to put Sophie through any more trips to the vets and have any more needles stuck in her than is absolutely neccessary. It upsets her no end. I found on the internet that the feline Chlamydia vaccination can cause 'lameness, fever and loss of appetite 1-3 weeks after administration' and for me, those symptoms fit the bill exactly. My vet seemed surprised. The one I last dealt with though, John, was genuinely pleased and relieved that my cat has come through this, I'll give him that.

I will just add that when I Googled for cat forums, I joined a UK one (I did register with another who were slow to send my confirmation email so I didn't bother) and this one which I thought would be useful when I was suspecting Cartrophen, with it being Australian made, and asked exactly the same question word for word on both. Perhaps it is because I was asking about an Austrailan treatment intended for dogs on a cat forum, but I got no response from the UK forum so have now removed my question. I am in your debt with the help and support you have given me and I really appreciate it.
Thanks again,
Mick

[Joy]

I'm glad that Sophie is nearly back to her old self.

[carmel]

Mick

I'm glad to hear that Sophie is nearly back to herself and I hope that you have her around for a while yet. The F3 vaccination that we refer to in Australia is for Feline Enteritis, Feline Calici Virus and Feline Rhinotracheitis. The F4 is these with the Chylamidia component in it.

Most of our vaccinations in Australia come from CSL our Comonwealth Serum Laboritories. I have heard of the Fort Dodge one and was aware that last year there was a recall on a batch of them, but can't remember if it was the UK or the States as I'm a member of a few web rings.

We vaccinate here at 10, 12 and 16 weeks and then again at 12 months. My vet is still out on the three yearly, she still wants to do yearly, I'm happy to vaccinate ever second year and my cattery is as well and my showin body guidelines are two yearly as well.

My own personal opinion is that when my cats are eldery and their health is compromised anyway and they are in the last stage of their life, quality over quantity will win for me, so support Sophie and give her the best that you can and enjoy her for the time that you have left with her.

But keep us posted on how she is going.

Carmel

[Voula]

Dear Mick,
I am very happy that Sophie is doing better. The chlamydia vaccine is not necessary for the average pet cat in my opinion. Our old vet agrees with my opinion. Our new vet routinely vaccinates for chlamydia but orders in the vaccine without chlamydia for us. I have heard of too many cats getting sick from the chlamydia vaccine. Now, if you got the f4 vaccine (which includes chlamydia) you would need to do it annually I think because I am pretty sure the chlamydia component of the vaccine does not last more than a year. The f3 is herpes, calici and enteritis as you called it, the f4 adds on chlamydia, and the the f5 adds on feline leukemia, so it sounds like your cat had the equivalent of an f5. Feline leukemia also lasts only a year I think. With f3 you have kitten series of vaccines, then a one year booster after the kitten series, then every three years after that. The enteritis component most likely lasts for the life of the cat with no boosters needed after one adult booster after the kitten series (though most likely even after the kitten series no more boosters are needed for the enteritis component). The herpes and calici components are the questionable components as to how long they last, some say the life of the cat, some say maybe not a year, so as a compromise the vets have decided on every three years. U.K. and Australian vets were slow to adopt the changes, and I don't know if U.K. vets have officially changed their policy on vaccinations. The U.S. and New Zealand were quicker to change. If I hadn't done my research our vets would still be telling me I need to vaccinate my cats every year. Our old vet said he still said every year because people wouldn't have annual checkups if he didn't. He has a point but I take my cats to the vet for their checkups every year but don't want them vaccinated if they don't need it. You are right though about catteries in that they still ask for annual vaccines. All the best.
Love, Voula

This post has been edited by Voula: 15 October 2009 - 03:33 PM